彼处人生：andrés marroquín winkelmann访谈

You grew up in Peru, I guess from your work Zapallal|Yurinaki that your childhood must have great influence on your photography style, could you share with me?

你在秘鲁长大，你的作品萨帕亚尔与尤利纳奇让我感觉你的童年一定对你的摄影风格产生了很大影响，能和我们说说吗？

When I was a child I loved to tell stories. Sometimes, these stories only happened in my imagination...I remember how my mother got worried about me telling lies. That might be something pretty natural in a child, but looking back on that I realized that what I do nowadays with photography is pretty similar, of course I don't think I'm telling lies with my images - don't get me wrong, but with time I've learned how to channel my imagination in order to create a visual narrative that is based on actual social and political issues. I believe, that another major influence has been Latin American literature, I remember my school times when we had to read poems of Cesar Vallejo, 100 years of solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez (several times), Pablo Neruda, Jose Maria Arguedas, Mario Vargas Llosa and Jorge Luis Borges.

当我还是个小孩子的时候我就很喜欢讲故事，这里面有些故事完全出于我的想象。我还记得当时我妈妈非常担心，因为她觉得我这是在说谎。我想这是每个小孩子都会有的天性，但现在回首我发现我今天所做的摄影和当初有很多相似之处。当然我不觉得我在用镜头说谎，不要误会我，我只是在岁月中懂得了如何运用自己的想象力，通过影像来反映实际的社会和政治问题。我相信拉丁美洲文学对我也有同样重大的影响，上学的时候我们要求诵读巴列霍(Cesar Vallejo,)的诗，马尔克斯(Gabriel Garcia Marquez)的百年孤独(读过几遍)，聂鲁达(Pablo Neruda)，阿格达斯(Jose Maria Arguedas)，巴尔加斯•略萨(Mario Vargas Llosa)和博尔赫斯(Jorge Luis Borges)的作品。

I was always a visual person and that's why I didn't find the idea of reading these books so attractive back then. But since I believe there are a lot of similarities to the way I interact with images and Latin American literature, I have been re-reading books written by these authors in the last years and I've been trying to analyze them from another perspective. I mean from a story-telling perspective: how to handle the characters, how to show or describe surroundings and moods; how to invite the viewer deeply into the story.

我是一个注重视觉的人，所以当时我并不觉得这些文字的东西有什么迷人之处。但当我开始发觉影像和拉美文学之间的相似之处，去年我重新拾起了这些书，我试图用新的观点来分析他们。从叙事的角度出发，理解文学作品如何塑造人物形象，刻画人物内心；如何引导读者深入故事内在。


I've found a intense tendency in your work to show the natural state of your subject, is that the name "As they Are" comes from? How do you get into this kind of style.

我觉得你的作品十分倾向于去表达被摄对象的自然状态，这是本次展览名字彼处人生的由来吗？你如何形成这样的风格？

Well the process is rather a straightforward one, most of my images are staged, kind of set-ups of the everyday, of the familiar and the ordinary. Most of the time, I make an appointment with my subject, shoot several rolls of a specific image or situation that I want to explore. Generally speaking, I'm interested in my subjects’ sense of vulnerability. I feel that it is something that is alive in a lot of people, and in order to get them into a state of embracing this feeling in front of the camera, we have to go trough an up-building process of trust and confidence. But to be completely honest with you, I don't have a fixed method I repeat every time I shoot, since I have to approach different people in different ways, and with time, this process gets really intuitive. Now I'm actually more interested in when to stop shooting!

这是一种自然而然形成的表现形式，我的大部分作品都是摆拍的，日复一日的生活构成了这些照片的场景。大部分时候联系好拍摄对象后，我会就我感兴趣的一个影像或情景反复拍摄。笼统的说，我喜欢表现我被摄对象脆弱的一面。我想每个人都有自己脆弱的一面，为了让他们进入状态在相机前展现这一面，我们需要进行很多的沟通建立相互之间的信任关系。坦白的说，我每次拍摄时并没有既定的条条框框，而是跟着感觉走，依天时地利达到最终的人和。事实上我现在更希望知道我应该何时停止拍摄。

You've mentioned truth, lies, everyday life and staged life. How do you tell them apart? How do you get to know your subject's living, and how do you ask they to act as they are?

你提到了真实和谎言，现实与摆拍。你如何将他们区别开来？你如何了解你对象的真实生活，让他们在镜头中展现他们的彼处人生？.



Well I will definitely not tell them to act as they are! As a result I would have a picture of someone trying really hard to act normal...

我并没有要求他们展现自己的生活，我只是想要让他们表现的尽可能正常。

Truth in photography can be really trivial since it's one of the closest reproductions of reality.
I rather see photography as an expression of a mental process, that being said, all I can do with my images is suggest. I can suggest what might it be to experience a narrative about Identity, as I did with "Conditions", for example.

真实这个概念对于摄影来说并没有必要过度强调，摄影本来就是最接近真实的再现手段之一。我更愿意把摄影视作一种表现内心活动的手段，或者说这是我的作品唯一能做到的。例如说让人们以视觉化叙事来体验身份的概念，这就是我在作品“状态”中想要表现的。

I don't look for truth with photography, but I strongly believe in the messages I try to convey with my images. When I'm photographing someone rather than trying to show who this person really is, I try to create an intimate atmosphere where the viewer is invited to reconsider new aspects that he normally wouldn't.

我并非以摄影来寻找真实，但我坚信我以影像所试图传递的信息。我在拍摄一个人的时候我并非想要表现这个人的真实一面，而是想要创造一种暧昧的氛围诱使观众思考他通常所不能表现出的一面。

Where do the images in the show in kunst.licht named “As they Are” come from, it's not included in your existing project.

在鲲鲤国际影廊的展览《彼处人生》包含了哪些作品？这并不是你已有的摄影项目。

"As they are" is a compilation of two of my series, "Zapallal|Yurinaki" and "Conditions" but the gallery was in charge of the presentation and edit...

彼处人生是萨帕亚尔与尤利纳奇和状态两组作品的综合，但是由画廊决定作品的布置和编辑。

As I know, most photographer don't like others to pick up images for personal exhibition. How do you see that? Will you feel uncomfortable about this? If their editing failed you, will you keep silence or tell them your idea?

就我所知，很少有摄影师愿意他人插手决定自己个展中的作品。你怎么看待这个问题？你是否会因此感到不适？如果他们挑选的作品让你不满，你会保持沉默还是实话实说？

It's a very tricky question, I think that if someone would like to make a show with (some) of my images, they already are informed what my work is about. There has to be a good communication between the photographer and the Gallery, but the photographer has to be aware what kind of show is the one he is taking part of.

这个问题很难回答，我想如果有人愿意展出我的作品，那么他们至少首先应该了解我的作品。摄影师和画廊之间应该有一个良好的沟通，摄影师也应该了解自己所参加展出的性质。

There are shows where a photographer is invited to take (almost) 100% of the decisions regarding the presentation on the wall, and there are other shows, where the curator and Gallery team have a vision and would like to invite you and your images to communicate a certain idea. I feel comfortable with both of these approaches as long as there is good communication but if I notice some misunderstandings I definitely try to clarify things.

有些展出摄影师基本能完全决定挂在墙上的每一幅作品，但有些展出策展人和画廊团队有自己的预想，他们邀请你是为了用你的影像来传递这种理念。只要沟通得当，我觉得两种情况我都能接受。但如果我觉得大家之间出现沟通问题，显然我会尽量把问题说清楚。

You've mentioned workshop in Shanghai, is workshop another important way of your style? What's your workshop alike?

你提到希望在上海展出的同时举办一次研讨会，研讨会是你风格中另外一种很重要的部分吗？这是一次什么样的研讨会？

My work deals with norms of behavior in their cultural and social context. Interacting with people is one of my motivations! That's why giving a workshop can be very exciting for me; I can't only review others people's work, something which I have to do in order to understand their approach to photography. But the workshop gets really interesting when we start working as a group and channeling our creativity and knowledge in the same direction, depending on the aims of the work that is to be presented. It would be great to get enough people interested in the workshop in Shanghai! If we make this happen, the workshop will have a theoretical and technical side, a part of the workshop will be about external lightning and staged photography.

我的作品着力于人们在特定文化社会背景下所表现的行为规范，和不同人打交道是我的最大兴趣之一。这就是研讨会让我兴奋的地方。我不仅仅是评价人们的作品，我还想要去了解他们对摄影的看法。当我们把自己看做一个团队，朝着共同方向沟通我们的灵感与知识，研讨会才真正变得有意义。我很希望上海的这次研讨会能吸引更多人的兴趣。如果可以的话，我会将一些摄影理论和隶属方面的东西，会谈到人造光源的运用以及摄影摆拍。

I conjectured that it would be a workshop about communication, because I've seen a lot of that in your portfolio, but you also mentioned technical side. How do you see technology in photography? Is this an important part for you?

我在你的作品中看到了很多的沟通与交流，所以我猜想这会是一次关于沟通的教学交流。但是你刚才也提到了技术层面的问题，那么你如何看待摄影中的技术？这对你来说重要吗？

Well, technology is really not that important for me...the results are what I'm interested in. However, I do think it is important to take consequent decisions regarding the technology (cameras/lenses - digital/analog) you use to develop a project.

事实上技术对我并没有那么重要，我关心的是结果。但我觉得你在项目推进以前必须首先考虑好技术因素，例如说所需要的相机及镜头、拍摄数码还是胶片等等，这些确实很重要。

Money is a big issue in photography, it can get really expensive to develop a project, print it, frame it and (maybe) create a book out of it. (And here we are not taking into consideration all the money you’ve already invested in equipment.)

钱对于摄影来说是个大问题，先不提在器材上所需的投资吧，拍摄要花钱、输出作品要花钱、装裱要花钱，如果你计划出书还得要花钱。

But don't just start shooting digital because you want to save money, and don't present only big prints in a show because you happened to have the money to do so. Every picture has its size, it can be small or big, but I strongly recommend NOT to take these decisions depending on how big or small your income is.... It can be a really long and painful process but it is important that at the end the results (the images and the presentation on the wall) reflect your intentions and ideas behind the project.

但是不要为了省钱就去拍数码，不要因为你有很多钱就把照片做得很大。所有照片都有适合自己的尺寸，有的大有的小，但这并不是由你荷包的尺寸决定。这是一个蛮长而痛苦的过程，但只有这样才能最终结果(悬挂在墙上的影像)反映出你项目背后的意图。

But as the galleries push the images bigger and bigger, how could you keep conscientious about this problem? How do you decide your works size?

但画廊正推动着摄影作品向着更大的趋势发展，在这种情况下你如何警醒的面对这一问题？你是怎么样确定自己作品尺寸的？ 

The Gallery shouldn't push the images...they photographer/artist should do it.

作品尺寸不应该由画廊决定，而是由摄影师或艺术家决定。

There are even photographers who have 3 different sizes for one picture...I really don't quite understand that. Well, I do understand that, but only from a marketing point of view. It seems that people start playing with several sizes just to attract more potential buyers, but that's not the point of doing a photographic project. Selling is important, since we all have to cover our expenses, but on the other hand, I have colleagues that are starting to shoot landscapes just because portraits don't sell that well, that is just ridiculous. 

有些摄影师甚至一幅作品会制作三个不同尺寸的版本，我很不理解这是为什么。当然，从市场角度来说我还是能理解他们的。也许他们觉得不同尺寸的作品能够吸引更多的潜在买家，但这并非做摄影项目应有的态度。作品销售确实很重要，因为我们都要靠这过活；但当我眼看着一个个同行们就因为人像作品不好卖就开始改行拍风光，我感到十分可笑。

When I start thinking about a size for my images, I try to look back on the ideas behind the project. That's why every project has his size.

我在确定自己作品尺寸之前，首先会考虑这组作品背后的理念，所以我的每组作品都有属于自己的尺寸。 
For the series "Zapallal|Yurinaki" I was interested in social development within the slums in Perú and the similarities with the life in the countryside. Every single element and the characteristics of those surroundings was relevant, that's why the print size is pretty large (at least in my standards!- 120cm wide)."Conditions" was printed in three different sizes. That allows me to present the work more poetically, I wanted to mark some accents on the wall, no beginning nor end, just create spaces within a space where the viewer has to take his own decisions regarding his approach towards the work. "Conditions" is about that, about making decisions, about ones we might or might not have taken, about claiming a stake.

对于萨帕亚尔与尤利纳奇这组作品来说，我首先感兴趣的是秘鲁贫民区的发展状况及其与乡村生活之间的相似之处。照片中的每一点元素都有自己的特点，都与环境相关，所以我必须把照片做到很大。一米二宽对于我来说真的很大。而状态这组作品有三个完全不同的尺寸，这样做能以更加诗意的方式呈现我的作品。我希望作品能在墙上表现出平仄韵律而不是开始或结尾，空间与空间之间的空隙让观众有余地选择观看作品的方式。这正是状态这组作品想要表现的，关于决策，关于我们害怕做出的决策，关于我们勇敢做出的决策。